About Me
Jesus paid the penalty that I deserve for sin. Everything else about me trickles down from that. My name is Clint Fortner and I live in Dallas, TX. I am married to a gloriously ambi-gorgeous (both inside and out) woman named Sarah. After May 11, 2009, she and I will be living in Korea.
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Do you “deserve” to be murdered? Come on, doesn’t that sound at least slightly ridiculous to you?
Murder is the least of what I deserve Luis. It is also the least of what you deserve for sin. But, what I was referring to specifically was the wrath of God. Christ (as God) absorbed it on the cross on behalf of those who place their trust in Him–resulting in the forgiveness of all sins and joy in God’s presence forever. Isaiah spoke of Christ several hundred years before He was even born and said this:
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all. (Isaiah 53:6)
Jesus bore the punishment that I most certainly deserve for sin (which was far worse than just an excruciating death on the cross). Thank you for asking a direct and honest question. This is what I believe and I hope it is something you come to believe also. Please let me know if you have any more questions.
“Murder is the least of what I deserve Luis. It is also the least of what you deserve for sin.”
I’m sorry you believe that.
I’m sorry you don’t.
Luis:
Clint and I have had this debate in the past. One of the most insidious things about religion is the reliance on masochism to justify the belief system. Masochism undoubtedly fulfills some human psychological need, and some in the religious hierarchy have seized upon this weakness to promote their cause. First Century Christians believed that Jesus came to end suffering and oppression not encourage it. Hence their belief in the second coming in their lifetime. Modern religious thought has institutionalized suffering as a component of faith giving us people like Mother Theresa who welcomed suffering when she wasn’t harboring doubts about her faith. Hitchens has it right when he famously said “Mother Theresa is a friend of poverty and not the poor.” There is some scholarly work on the connection in the Journal of Religion and Health.–Stuart Charme from Rutgers is one author It makes for interesting reading.
I think human history attests to our own wickedness Mespo. Am I so much different than the soldiers that slaughter Christians in North Korea, the tribesmen in the Amazon that bury children alive, the liars in politics, or the African men who rape little girls in order to cure themselves from AIDS? Are you? If you are, what distinguishes you from people like that?
The truth is that evil is a human condition, not an individual one. That is highly offensive to a democratic, feel-good, self-esteem culture. Its actually pretty offensive to every culture. I do not deny its offensiveness but nor will I deny its reality.
Clint:
I think you very different from the murderers you describe. Eric Sevareid asked once if we believe that horrific well-publicized acts define the state of mankind, should we not also consider the uncountable acts of kindness that occur daily without any fanfare at all. Do they not also deserve consideration in assessing our condition? I, for one think, there is more good than bad, and that good just has a poor publicity agent. I will not readily accept the evil of all around me. I am sure you would not consider you family, close friends and loved ones evil. Why should you not afford yourself the same courtesy, or at least the benefit of the doubt?
I differ from those people you mention in that I have no desire to inflict that type of violence on anyone. We all have choices and the fact that most people do not engage in this type of conduct attests to our innate goodness, rather than some imagined evil. That you cite it as evil also places you in the former category. Give yourself, and the rest of us, more credit. There are all kinds of stages of moral evolution, and I think that you and I are nearer the top than the bottom. Look at the norm rather than the horrific exception to judge the species. Otherwise you are playing into the hands of those who would oppress you with your own guilt.
Mespo,
Why do you propose that we are generally good with the occasional bad acts rather than bad with the occasional good acts? Liars pay their taxes. Arrogant people donate to charity. Hitler thought he was doing a service for the world by annihilating Jews. If humanity determines what is right or wrong then what is the standard? Is murder evil but the occasional lie not? What about the places in Africa where it is generally accepted to circumcize baby girls so that they won’t enjoy sex when they are older? Are you of any authority to say that that is wrong? If so, why? In America, it is considered evil to declare war on a country by lying but not murdering children in the womb.
It might be a surprise to you Mespo but, yes my loved ones and family are sinners and are deserving of eternal punishment. They, like me and the rest of the world, have dishonored, disobeyed, and rejected God. My fiancee, whom I deeply love and respect, is also deserving of the same and she would be quick to tell you. I realize that that sounds like I’m about to drink the cult coolaid to you, but I’m not being unreasonable.
My fiancee and I look to Christ, Mespo. He has been punished so that she and I don’t have to be. Though we deserve punishment, we don’t get what we deserve. If you knew my past life, I think you might think differently about whether I’m good or not. He has given me a new heart that desires to be compassionate and good to others. There is absolutely no guilt in my life, but I know what kind of person I am without Christ inside of me. I know you aren’t a big fan of the metaphysical stuff, but I can’t explain any of that in a rational scientific format.
Clint:
“If humanity determines what is right or wrong then what is the standard? Is murder evil but the occasional lie not?”
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Humanity has always determined good from evil. We usually base it on things or concepts that provide us pleasure as opposed to those that provide us pain and apply the good and evil labels accordingly. Certainly the Bible is not the standard, lest we still have human slavery, or the death penalty for apostasy etc. The acts you mention involve some good people doing bad acts, and some bad people deluding themselves that they are performing good acts. The point is simply as Aristotle noted, we are what we repeatedly do, not what we may do occasionally or under stress. Hence my belief that mankind is basically good given our ability to live in relative harmony with each other. There are glaring counter-examples but note how many times irrational religious differences negate this simple universal impulse for humans to work together. Examples abound like Northern Ireland, Iraq, India, Middle East, Bosnia, Cyprus, East Timor, Nigeria, Uganda, Sudan, and on and on. My point is that while you may certainly find peace in the ancient words of some mythic figure that does not suggest you could not find similar peace in the precision of mathematics or the glory of nature or a myriad of other life experiences that provides you with a purpose. The problem we skeptics have with self-loathing properties of your faith is the inevitable belief that others should feel equally guilty. I feel no responsibility for the transgressions of Adam or Cain or any other person who came before me whether real or imagined. If so, what value is there in the notion of Free Will. If I am guilty from the start, what value is my right to act as I believe proper and be judged on that alone. That is hardly a clean slate to begin the grading. The basic problem with your ideas about pre-existing guilt is that it makes the value system of Christianity internally inconsistent, and makes its followers obsequious serfs seeking forgiveness rather than self-actualized beings making their way in an admittedly difficulty world. Your Jim Jones reference is particularly pertinent since that result is precisely the logical extension of this mental pathology where the cult, realizing that others will not accept this notion of group guilt, first segregates itself from society and then internalizes its frustration with those “who will not see” the “obvious” righteousness of their faith and lashes out violently. The ending is never “good.”
Hi Clint. I thought I’d let you know that I appreciate the comment that you lleft for me. I’ve now deleted all those posts (can’t figure out how to delete the blog) and reading them back, I feel ashamed, and dirty, and it really doesn’t sound like me who’s talking!
I do find it a struggle, daily, as every christian does but i would like you to know that recently I have been more forceful with myself to respect Jesus more in this part of my life as I do in the rest of it, and am looking towards a fresh start.
thank you. x
Thank you for responding. It is a struggle daily. For me to stop relying on Christ would mean that I’d be back to being a pervert in no time. The least of what God is seeking for you is some technical purity of body. He wants your heart pure…which means your body will be pure as a result. Save that part of you (more than just virginity) for a husband who loves Jesus and treats you honorably. He said to the woman caught in adultery, “Go and sin no more.” He says that to you and I every day.
He is faithful and just to forgive AND CLEANSE…
“Jesus paid the penalty that I deserve for sin. ”
Amen!